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Personal Diaries / Re: Sustanon 250 TRT Log/Diary Olly13
« Last post by Olly13 on December 16, 2017, 11:46:06 PM »
Hey :)
£3 per ampule using 4 a month I guess?  That is quite affordable.

Yeah it is curiosity more than anything as I've been on the gels for years - I don't perceive many downsides but I just wondered if I might be better on injections.
I tried Nebido and I really don't rate it much.  There are guys on other forums that swear by it but even they admit that it does take 5 or 6 injections to reach a steady state - given the injections are anywhere from 8 to 14 weeks apart you are looking at a year to get on the level. Plus it is a large 4ml injection that can only be given by a nurse.

I'm kind of stuck at the moment as the GP won't change my treatment without specialist say so - which I completely respect and understand the reasons why. The problem is the local endo sucks ass, I ditched the endo clinic a couple of years back now, so I have no desire to get referred back.  They don't listen, they just test and treat the numbers on paper.   

So I was thinking maybe finding a private specialist to advise my GP on treatments might be the way to go.   From the NHS perspective Sustanon is a hell of a lot cheaper than Testogel.

So, went against my word and forgot to do a progress update. Oops.

To answer BigV's question quick, yes Sustanon costs £3-4 per amp, not bad eh? like you said, much cheaper compared to alternatives such as gels and Nebido.

My excuse for not updating this thread is for 3 reasons:
1) Not enough changes to report about
2) Too Busy helping all you lot, which i'd rather do, over talking about myself like a narcissist.
3) Working on other Projects related to TDC

Anyway, no:1 changed so thought while ive got a spare half hour i'd share/update.

I've now been on TRT for 16 months (thats gone quick...!) and since my last update ive noticed a few curious changes. Essentially i'm being hit with a 2nd mini puberty. no, im not joking. let me elaborate/bullet point.

What i've noticed since last update
- Grown an Inch... in height (mind out of the gutter ;))
- Gained a fair bit of size (lean mass/bone mass), hardly own any items of clothing that actually fit properly, just sold/charitied several bags.
- Following the above, chest has gone from 37-38" pre TRT, up to 42 1/2" Progress photo like did before (https://s8.postimg.org/rvhxe4skl/pjimage.jpg) don't want to dereact from the thread though.
- Huge increase in facial hair, but what's really odd is also an increase in the soft "bum fluff" stuff too, especially in between existing beard hair, which is slowly turning into thicker "terminal hair", again, much like puberty... same not very good with body hair too (unfortunately)
- Face shape change, my jaw is broader; Stronger, leaner. more masculine looking (Duh, wonder why?).
- I can see more vascularity, this isn't just exclusively due to working out either.
- Mental Clarity is still good
- Slightly less Patience in various ways, for example I wont tolerate BS as much, i'm sharper tongued; less inhibited. this obviously has pros and cons. Perhaps it's just from having some confidence for once?
- Life Drive, I.e self improvement, I invest more time learning and personal development etc. Currently re-doing a few Qualifications. previously too tired to pursue anything like this.
- Blood Pressure is 114/40 (Suck on that Borderline secondary Polycythemia!) Resting HR is 55-60 BPM.
- Prolactin Is down to 222 mu/L (Looks like Supplements can work! NALT, ginko, zinc btw)
- Been able to cease All Asthma/allergy medication, no problems at all. There is a link between Asthma and Low T, proof being my expiratory flow rate not changing at all.

All in all, looks positive to me.

I Mustn't forget, I had my follow up with Dr S (in August), was all good, he seemed happy with it all, even including my RBC. I quizzed him hard about secondary Polycythemia and his views on the issue. Apparently he discussed this a while back with a few haematologists he knows, the current consensus is not to worry about it too much, unless ridiculously high; a hematocrit in the high 50's for example, at which point a dose reduction is on the table. This line of thinking also correlates with the idea that it's simply only an increase in the red blood cells, unlike Polycythemia vera which also raises white blood cells and also platelets. I feel which the two get treated/talked about the same way in an interchangeable manner, which is simply not the case, Polycythemia vera is a bone marrow disease (and does kill), whereas all TRT is doing is increasing endogenous EPO slightly.

I'd like to add I still personally advise caution regarding RBC elevation, but i'm starting to think the ceiling is a little higher than we've all lead ourselves to believe. Obviously if you have other complications going on then again be very carefull, if not then dont freak out if hematocrit touches the so called "higher" numbers, again, within reason.

Something else to add, I had a Follow up appointment with an NHS endocrinologist, and...well... it didnt go well. I snapped. I was told I'd be coming off TRT as decided by their "team", without one consideration as to what I had to say about this, It was happening whether I liked it or not apparently. I sat there, smiled and went for it, I asked her how the Heck she expected my levels to stay where they are? which she explained she genuinely thought they would and my natural production would take over, I just laughed and said "you don't have a clue how hypogonadism works do you?" followed by "just discharge me, i'll stay private under the care of Dr Savage; who knows what he's actually doing."

I was too Angry to write a complaint at the time, and quite frankly had better things to do. I dont know if it still is worth it or not? if enough of you think it is I might write one and post the content on here, could be a good template since this sort of issue is a common problem so it seems.

Now, has anyone else had a "Second puberty" from TRT? the reason I say second is I "thought" I went though it normally enough, evidently not the case though. would be nice to hear it's not entirely a "me thing", I doubt it is though.

:)
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Diagnosis Problems / Re: Newbie with Low T
« Last post by Olly13 on December 16, 2017, 12:21:15 PM »
I'd like to hark back to Ollie's earlier comment:

"I wouldn't even bother getting LH and FSH tested from hear on out, it'll no doubt confuse the nurse as to why it's now zero, and probably cause consideration for cessation of therapy."

Not sure which member of the forum it was, but this actually happened to someone. During their earlier months of therapy the endo ran a blood test and was shocked to find their LH and FSH had plummeted. I'm sure it resulted in the doctor stopping therapy. Sounds crazy but stuff like Ollie said does happen.

I'm one of the few on here who had testicular cancer. It took me well over a year to get therapy even with values of less than <4nmols/L. It was my GP who overruled the specialists in my case. He said your levels are low and continue to fall test-upon-test, so let's get you well again.

Craig

Crazy isnt it?

Shouldn't be like this, by now you'd think it would be common knowledge within the Endocrinology community, that TRT lowers LH and FSH, i've had 2 endocrinologists argue that TRT wont affect LH and FSH. Stuff like this winds me up no end.

:)
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Diagnosis Problems / Re: My Bloodwork Results: What To Do Next
« Last post by Ashto70 on December 16, 2017, 11:33:08 AM »
Hi zronhez

Welcome aboard!

All the technical stuff's been done so I'll just give you my two-cents worth on the choices. Firstly, you're partly right that the NHS generally only tests total testosterone. However, to my understanding, very few labs in the country can perform complex free/bioavailable testosterone tests which makes them an expensive choice of test to perform when the NHS has a budget.

Secondly, if you've read some of the threads on the forum you may have come to the realisation that andrology is a complex area of medical science. The vast majority of GP's and endocrinologists have scant levels of knowledge about testosterone deficiency and the interpretation of blood test results. So in reality, I think you're basically on a hiding-to-nothing going through the NHS system to get any sort of diagnosis if you present them with the blood panel results you've shown us. I very much doubt your GP would even be interested in referring you to an endocrinologist.

If your finances and free-time allow it I'd highly consider going the private route:

You'll see someone who has time and empathy and a person who is highly knowledgeable and qualified in hypogonadism. The vital thing is he/she will offer and advise on the options available to you (if you are suffering from a deficiency) and start you on therapy almost immediately after making a diagnosis. Occasionally, some private patients are successfully able to transfer their care from the private consultant to an NHS one, thus saving you time and costs in the future.

Best regards and good luck.
Craig
 
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Diagnosis Problems / Re: Newbie with Low T
« Last post by Ashto70 on December 16, 2017, 11:02:10 AM »
I'd like to hark back to Ollie's earlier comment:

"I wouldn't even bother getting LH and FSH tested from hear on out, it'll no doubt confuse the nurse as to why it's now zero, and probably cause consideration for cessation of therapy."

Not sure which member of the forum it was, but this actually happened to someone. During their earlier months of therapy the endo ran a blood test and was shocked to find their LH and FSH had plummeted. I'm sure it resulted in the doctor stopping therapy. Sounds crazy but stuff like Ollie said does happen.

I'm one of the few on here who had testicular cancer. It took me well over a year to get therapy even with values of less than <4nmols/L. It was my GP who overruled the specialists in my case. He said your levels are low and continue to fall test-upon-test, so let's get you well again.

Craig
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Diagnosis Problems / Re: Newbie with Low T
« Last post by Sham on December 15, 2017, 10:41:44 PM »
My other issue with self medicating is the long term viability of sourcing and the quality of what is being put into the body.

This is very true. I have been doing this for just over a year now, and at the moment I am self-medicating only so I can try lots of different things and see what works best. I donít know what my TRT is going to look like long term. I think Iíve worked out that clomid works best for me, and I am therefore pursuing this through the NHS. Had I found that injections were the best idea, I would have asked my endo for that instead. The objective is to be able to get what I want long term from the NHS. Having to rely on steroid sources for TRT long term sounds like a nightmare.
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Diagnosis Problems / Re: Newbie with Low T
« Last post by Olly13 on December 15, 2017, 10:24:20 PM »
For most people I wouldnít condone it either. Itís certainly not something you should try unless you know exactly what you are doing, the possible consequences and side effects, how the medications work etc. I do know all that stuff, so Iím OK with it, but for the average person that comes on here asking for advice, it wouldnít be wise at all.

Agreed.

My other issue with self medicating is the long term viability of sourcing and the quality of what is being put into the body.

I still totally get it though, and if I was faced with the choice of nothing or 'something' I know what I'd pick.

It's good to have issues like this broadcast, it shows how messed up the system is which ideas like this have to be used in desperation.
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Diagnosis Problems / Re: Newbie with Low T
« Last post by Sham on December 15, 2017, 09:28:15 PM »
While I don't condone self medicating at all; I full understand.

For most people I wouldnít condone it either. Itís certainly not something you should try unless you know exactly what you are doing, the possible consequences and side effects, how the medications work etc. I do know all that stuff, so Iím OK with it, but for the average person that comes on here asking for advice, it wouldnít be wise at all.
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Diagnosis Problems / Re: Newbie with Low T
« Last post by Olly13 on December 15, 2017, 09:08:32 PM »
I came to that conclusion a while back. Thatís why I self-medicate.

While I don't condone self medicating at all; I full understand. I was nearly at that point myself 17 months ago, I had two choices, ring Dr Savage, or click order on some iffy website. I chose the former, fortunately for the better.

It shouldn't be like this though, especially not when the other gender can walk into anywhere and be prescribed a hormonal contraceptive for example, and those have actually been shown to do real damage, unlike responsible  doses of testosterone.

It really does now look like the Testogel didn't just not do much, it didn't actually do anything!!

If I'd had LH and FSH tested in August and October when I had the blood tests this fact may have been discovered much earlier. It certainly explains why I have felt so bad for so long. Anyway I suppose there is no point dwelling on the past. I'm not on Testogel any more, I'm on nebido now, so I am very intrigued to see what the next blood test shows, which I will have on the day I have the next injection (6 weeks after the first). I'm going to check then they are testing LH and FSH as well as Testosterone. I've still not had oestradiol checked on any of the blood tests so I shall remind them about that too, in case I'm converting too much testosterone. I'm now 2 weeks since the first jab and there's certainly no sign of any positive changes yet, but I know I have to be patient.

I do indeed share other's frustration with the NHS in dealing with hypogonadism. I have come to the conclusion no one else is going to sort my hypogonadism out for me, I need to sort it out myself! Thanks guys for your input and advice, I appreciate you taking the time. There is far more knowledge on this forum than I have got from the NHS.


Yeah don't dwell, it won't change the time already wasted, it'll just prolong the pain of knowing so.

I wouldn't even bother getting LH and FSH tested from hear on out, it'll no doubt confuse the nurse as to why it's now zero, and probably cause consideration for cessation of therapy. Save yourself aggro.

Besides getting oestradiol tested is far more important in my opinion,  As is keeping an eye on RBC.

:)
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Diagnosis Problems / Re: Newbie with Low T
« Last post by Sham on December 15, 2017, 07:53:06 PM »
I have come to the conclusion no one else is going to sort my hypogonadism out for me, I need to sort it out myself! Thanks guys for your input and advice, I appreciate you taking the time. There is far more knowledge on this forum than I have got from the NHS.

I came to that conclusion a while back. Thatís why I self-medicate.
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Diagnosis Problems / Re: Newbie with Low T
« Last post by andy on December 15, 2017, 07:29:46 PM »
It really does now look like the Testogel didn't just not do much, it didn't actually do anything!!

If I'd had LH and FSH tested in August and October when I had the blood tests this fact may have been discovered much earlier. It certainly explains why I have felt so bad for so long. Anyway I suppose there is no point dwelling on the past. I'm not on Testogel any more, I'm on nebido now, so I am very intrigued to see what the next blood test shows, which I will have on the day I have the next injection (6 weeks after the first). I'm going to check then they are testing LH and FSH as well as Testosterone. I've still not had oestradiol checked on any of the blood tests so I shall remind them about that too, in case I'm converting too much testosterone. I'm now 2 weeks since the first jab and there's certainly no sign of any positive changes yet, but I know I have to be patient.

I do indeed share other's frustration with the NHS in dealing with hypogonadism. I have come to the conclusion no one else is going to sort my hypogonadism out for me, I need to sort it out myself! Thanks guys for your input and advice, I appreciate you taking the time. There is far more knowledge on this forum than I have got from the NHS.
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