The TDC Forum - helping men with hormones.

The Testosterone Deficiency Forum => Help us to help you => Topic started by: Josh on November 28, 2013, 04:31:05 PM

Title: Reference Range Map
Post by: Josh on November 28, 2013, 04:31:05 PM
I would like to put together a google map of Testosterone reference ranges throughout the UK as one hospital and need your help.

It would be great if you could help by posting a reply with your info in relation to the points below. Sometimes labs will change their reference range so if you have different ranges for the same hospital please post them with dates.

1) Date of test
2) Measurement (Often nmol/L)
3) Range specified
4) Hospital or lab (if known) or NHS Trust area if not known.

I am aware that some people may not want to openly disclose information that may reveal their location in a public forum so you are welcome to send your reply via private message to me :)

Thanks for your help
Josh
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Josh on November 28, 2013, 04:35:51 PM
I will kick things off then :)

1) March 2013
2) nmol/L
3) 8.0 - 32.0
4) Ipswich NHS Trust

1) October 2013
2) nmol/L
3) 8.64 - 29.0
4) Ipswich NHS Trust
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Ashto70 on November 28, 2013, 05:33:59 PM
Josh. I can't remember the exact date, and as for their ranges - I hope - they will be defunct, outdated, and replaced.

1. February 2002
2. nmols/l
3. 4-25
4. Stoke on Trent (North Staffordshire NHS)
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: db570uk on November 28, 2013, 06:36:18 PM
Hi Craig and Josh,
The google map is a really good idea

UCLH

1) Novemmber 2013
2) nmol/L
3) 7.6-31.4 nmol/L (Male >18Y)
4) University College London Hospitals (UCLH)


Cheers
Dave
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: student on November 28, 2013, 08:44:10 PM
1) September 2013
2) nmol/L
3) 9.9-27.8
4) Birmingham, City Hospital, Clinical Chemistry

1) March 2013
2) nmol/L
3) 9.4-37
4) NHS Leicestershire County and Rutland
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: BigV on November 29, 2013, 08:22:56 PM
Oct 2008
nmol/L
FSH 2-12
LH 1-8
TSH 0.35 - 6
UHCW (Coventry)

Testosterone:
October 2009
nmol/L
10-28
UHCW (Coventry)

August 2011
nmol/L
8.6-29
UHCW (Coventry)

I have loads more tests but none of my more recent  print-outs have included a reference range!

edit 07/01/14 to include LH, FSH and TSH (thyroid) ranges.
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Josh on December 20, 2013, 10:44:41 AM
Thanks for the responses so far, I have put these results into a google map (link below).

If we could get some more responses that would be great, would give us a bigger picture to look at, so please do add to this data! Remember if you are concerned about privacy you can send a private message to me with the info which will be used anonymously and the message deleted once added to the map.

Thanks again, and here is that link - http://bit.ly/JJXmdB

Josh
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Stripey on December 29, 2013, 10:58:33 AM
May 2009 - 2011
5.4 - 28.1 (stayed same throughout)
Nmol/l
Wycombe hospital

Jan 2012
5.7 - 30.4
Nmol/l
Wycombe hospital

I'm getting another one next week at UCLH so I`ll give an update when I get results
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: hotdog on December 30, 2013, 11:54:27 AM
Bloods test results on the 11.06.2013
(10-36) nmol/L
The Royal Alexandra Hospital (Paisley Scotland)

Bloods test results on the 07.10.2013
(10-36) nmol/L
The Royal Alexandra Hospital (Paisley Scotland)

Bloods test results on the 21.10.2013
(10-36) nmol/L
The Royal Alexandra Hospital (Paisley Scotland)

Bloods test results on the 13.12.2013
(270-1000) ng/dl :o
The Royal Alexandra Hospital (Paisley Scotland) 


Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: smiffy on January 03, 2014, 05:02:13 PM
Bloods done 15/07/13 at crosshouse hospital kilmarnock Ayrshire & Arran health board.

Free? Testosterone range: 11-36nmols/dl
Free T4: 9-24pmols/l
TSH: 0.3-6mu/l
Glucose: 3.2-6.1mmol/L

Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Caliban on January 10, 2014, 02:36:45 PM
Queen Elizabeth II Hospital,Welwyn Garden City,Herts
6-27nmol/L (last tested there two and a half years ago prior to moving to Dorset)

Poole Hospital,Dorset (2011-2012)
10-35nmol/L

Poole Hospital,Dorset (2013)
8-35nmol/L

My blood is drawn at doctors surgery & sent to lab,nearest is Poole Hospital so that is where I assume my tests are preformed..I'll try & confirm next time I have tests performed.
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: lxm on March 23, 2014, 10:31:03 AM
24/01/14

Tayside NHS (Scotland)

testosterone

8.6-28.8 nmol
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Stripey on April 23, 2014, 11:12:00 PM
Interesting, there are a few places where the bottom of the range is/was near 10nmol and my recent one is at less than 6nmol. So I can be tested at Hospital A today and be regarded as normal and healthy and be tested at Hospital B tomorrow and be regarded as deficient and put on treatmemt?! Such a weird way of making a diagnosis! I tried explaining this to my endo but clearly failed to put my point across!
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Josh on April 24, 2014, 09:58:33 AM
It is kind of crazy isnt it?! It highlights how there is a need to follow the guidelines rather than the reference range because as you point out you could be tested the same day at two different hospitals and be given differing options based on the results compared to the ref range.

I believe reference ranges are skewed when it comes to testosterone because its a test that is not carried out as part of a more generalised diagnostic test, its usually tested when all other avenues are exhausted and therefore when it is far more likely to be low, so the sample of results used to create the range contains far more low results.

Anyway, please keep posting ranges people - the more data we have the better!

Josh
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Ashto70 on April 27, 2014, 04:03:18 PM
Hi Stripey

When I had my T levels tested back in 2001/2002 the accepted normal range at my local hospital was anything over 3.9nmols, even with symptoms of hypogonadism supporting the patient's case. This is why even though my levels following the removal of my testicle - were falling like a stone - around 8nmols or 9nmols down to 4nmol in three tests over a 9 month period, the endocrinologist said I was still healthy T-wise.

Thankfully, the guidelines have sort of levelled out this load of negligent nonsense, and anything between <8 - 12nmols is the current proving ground for hypogonadism.

Regards,
Craig
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: aq42 on August 06, 2014, 06:01:43 PM
Countess of Chester Hospital, Chester
March 2014
Reference Range 9-40 nmol/l
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: MrRNA on November 15, 2014, 11:39:05 PM
November 2014
nmol/L
11.4-27.9
Craigavon Area Hospital, NI
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Josh on December 14, 2015, 09:42:10 PM
Anyone got any other reference ranges to add to the list?

Although the data we have so far is fairly limited, it does look very interesting. If anyone has ranges to add please do so as soon as possible as I am wanting to use the data to highlight the reference range problem which may even prove useful to show to stubborn GP's.

Josh

The map, so far, can be seen at http://bit.ly/JJXmdB
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2015, 11:40:31 PM
Range 9.9 - 27.8 on all my blood tests

Norfolk NHS
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Josh on December 21, 2015, 09:12:16 PM
So, I have put together a graph using the data we have so far. I cant get the graph type I want, but this illustrates things well enough.

Take a look here: http://i68.tinypic.com/s5eo04.jpg

It really does highlight the differences that can occur depending on which NHS area you are in. If doctors follow reference range alone (which many seem to) it would mean at one hospital you would be seen as 'normal' where another would say you are low.

Equally worrying is the difference in the high end of the range. I am surprised to see 40 being top of range. That could mean that in one area if your level was 39 the doctors would be unconcerned, while in another hospital the doctors might panic if the range top end is 25.

I really hope we can put this into some form that can be of use to people who are low according to guidelines yet their doctors refuse to accept this as its within range. Its an aim for the coming year, all suggestions welcome.

Josh
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Anonymous on December 21, 2015, 09:56:43 PM
Great work, Josh. :)
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: TechnoPrisoners on December 22, 2015, 04:15:47 PM
Hello Josh
East Lancashire Hospitals Trust and Pennine Acute Hospitals Health Trust both use 10.0 nmol/l to 37.0nmol/l

Cheers
Tim
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: James G on December 22, 2015, 08:24:10 PM
The complication of all this is that each hospital trust will use it own 'kit' (or at least one bought in) to assay testosterone (and many other things as well), and as such their references ranges will vary from one hospital to another.
They test their assay method with a known standard concentration of testosterone and come up with a reference range which is particular to their lab. As such if you are going get a t test done which needs repeating it is advisable to get it done by the same lab, so that there is consistency on measurements.
Your doctor will assess your personal results against the reference range given by the lab who carried out the test. They won't really take any notice of the reference ranges of other labs.
So although there is variation around the country there would be little point comparing one result with another, as its like comparing apples and pears - similar but not the same.
HTH
JG
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Josh on December 23, 2015, 08:58:32 AM
The point here is not to compare hospitals but to highlight how much variance there is and therefore the barriers experienced to some in receiving treatment where needed, or indeed to be taken seriously.

I have discussed the issue with medical professionals before and with the reference range being partly made up by a calculation based on samples taken. If your sample of patients having testosterone tested is from a set of patients who are determined as pretty likely to have low testosterone then your normal population calculation is going to be skewed.

The reference range issue is one that is a hot topic in the area of thyroid issues and I understand there were some attempts in certain areas to standardise reference ranges across hospitals.

Josh
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: James G on December 23, 2015, 10:27:38 PM
Indeed, if you are sampling a population who are likely to have low testosterone your normal range in fact will be lower, as your median and mean will be on the lower end of the scale, pushed down by the low liers, though of course mostly results will be in the generalised normal range.
In many respects normal ranges are not a huge amount of help - they encourage doctors to judge based on a somewhat arbitrary scale rather than assess things based on symptoms and an absolute value. It would be more encouraging for dr's to follow the guidelines and act appropriately based on clinical and biochemical findings.
What you really want is for a doctor to act on genuinely low T levels that have been verified by a repeat test, and to then follow accepted guidelines. What you really can't blame them for is for them following the same guidelines when the results are clearly in the normal range.
Knowing what the normal range is for a particular lab is just a distraction.
What we can't ask for is to have our cake and then to be able to eat it; or rather we can't ask doctors to interpret guidelines how we wish them to do when it is in our favour and then ignore them when the evidence (viz blood tests ) are against us.
I think thyroid ranges are far less contentious and far more standardized across the NHS than T results, in my experience.
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Ashto70 on December 24, 2015, 09:22:21 AM
Hi guys.

I agree that there needs to be some sort of range standardisation regarding the laboratory assays. I'm not familiar with the procedures and results for thyroid tests but if they can be based upon a standard test and range then so surely should testosterone?

If it's a simple case of recalibration to conform to a standard then that needs to be done. However, my guess is that laboratory equipment and analysis consumables used to measure testosterone are all completely different to one and other.

Standardisation is certainly a need and so is adherence and conforming to the guidelines provided - as James mentions.

Sadly, while all the spin is still largely against the use of testosterone therapy, I feel that progress in either of these areas is likely to be slim and not forthcoming.

Craig
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: mad4it on September 29, 2016, 06:50:27 PM
 

    1.  13 July 2016
    2.   nmol/L
    3.   8.7-29.0
    4.   St Austell Healthcare, Cornwall
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Ashto70 on September 29, 2016, 08:00:45 PM
Cheers Mad4it
Mad for what exactly bruv? No...don't say it..! ;)
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: mad4it on October 02, 2016, 09:09:46 AM
In my youth in Manchester I was a mad raver, still like my dance tunes now!!😁😁
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Ashto70 on October 04, 2016, 06:55:36 PM
No way!?

I was a raver and into Acid House too bruv! Used to go to Hacienda "Nude Nights", HelterSkelter, Fantasia, and went to my local raves at Shelley's and Entropy (Amnesia House) both in my town of Stoke on Trent.

Love listening to the Old Skool stuff still like Top Buzz, Daz Willet, Groove Rider, Krome and Time, Sasha, Man Paris and all them DJ's and MC's. Still do a bit of bedroom mixing these days too.

Seriously mate, they were the best years of my life bro.

Craig
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: mad4it on October 04, 2016, 08:46:16 PM
Best times ever Craig. We loved at Maximes in Wigan, danced all night off my head smoking like a trooper !!😁 We did Monroes afterwards till Sunday morning go back to my  mates house and chill out all day reliving the top night we had just had. I was not a lover of the Hacienda,couldn't relax. Too many thugs and wannabe gangsters. We were out for the music only O and for them mad rushes. Thank god for them " rhubarb & custards"😃😃😃😃
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Ashto70 on October 08, 2016, 04:27:43 PM
I preferred the Mitsubishi's and white doves myself. Best 15.00 I ever spent!
We had a Maxime's my local town of Newcastle too. Never realised they were a pan-national chain of nightclubs. When I went Hacienda it was on a Friday night in 1987/1988 and it was very peaceful. I know that later - I think after '93 - it went downhill fast. I blame the introduction of Drum & Bass, and Gabba Techno for things going awry.
For me 1988 to 1993 were the very best years of House. The days that started with Baby Ford, Rude Boyz of House, Nitro Deluxe, and A Guy Called Gerald starting the Acid House scene.

I think we're probably venturing into misusing the thread. So I'll remove these posts after your next reply, if you make one.

Best regards.
Craig
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: TommyT on October 08, 2016, 05:29:24 PM
Hi all

Royal Bournemouth September 2015

Normal range
0.5 - 30 nmol/l

Lymington new forest hospital April 2015

Normal range
10-23.6

Also like to say on 1 blood test i had 11nmol/l from lymington hospital and it said below range in the normality box.

Then I was referred to Bournemouth endocrine unit had a test that was 4.5nmol/l and the doc said it was in range lol

A very long year and half later And starting Nebbio in a couple of weeks

Do your levels fluctuate like mine ?

My levels over the  last year and a half have been

8.8 - 11 - 4.5 - 6 - 13

I have tried different testosterone boosting supplements over that time

Regards Tom
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Ashto70 on October 09, 2016, 11:32:22 AM
Hi Tommy

A regular Joe unaffected by hypogonadism would see their levels fluctuate during the day. The levels peak in the morning an hour or so after waking, and then drop by 15% to 40% (depending on age) by the evening. So the time you take your blood tests will affect these results, but hypogonadism can also cause specific-time fluctuations due to impaired function of the pituitary gland and/or ill-functioning or damaged testicles.

Do you have any results for LH, FSH, SHBG? If so please post them up on the diagnosis section of the website bruv.

Regards.
Craig
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: TommyT on October 09, 2016, 12:42:12 PM
Thanks Craig
I'm 37 and all tests were done at 9 am Ish I will dig out all my blood tests and my laptop easier to type on than I pad and start a thread with symptoms and hassle I have had with NHS etc
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Josh on October 09, 2016, 09:21:34 PM
Tommy,

Is that correct - 0.5 - 30nmol/L ? if correct that has got to be the lowest bottom end ever?!

Josh
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Ashto70 on October 10, 2016, 01:48:29 PM
Hi Josh

Yeah it does look a bit low! Do you mean 5nmol/L Tommy?
Using that range nobody would ever get onto therapy - not even guys with no testicles.
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: TommyT on October 10, 2016, 02:19:15 PM
Yes I couldn't believe it either

Still have copies of blood test I can send you as well
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Ashto70 on October 12, 2016, 06:46:37 PM
No need bro. Just wanted to be sure it wasn't a typo. :)
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Olly13 on January 04, 2017, 06:53:30 PM
Hi all,

Date of test's - 2015 to 2016

Ref ranges.
Testosterone: 11.4 - 27.9 nmol/L
Oestradiol: 92 - 223 pmol/L
SHBG: 18.3 - 54.1 nmol/L
LH: 1.7 - 8.6 iu/L
FSH: 1.5 - 12.4 iu/L
Prolactin: 86 - 324 mu/L
Androstenedione: 1 -11.5 nmol/L

United Lincolnshire Hospitals NHS Trust

and to no surprise these Ranges in no way aided trying to convince GPs that there was an Issue, I got told Total T of 9 nmol/L was perfectly fine.

thought I'd add the other test ranges in case it helps.
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: James G on February 26, 2017, 12:08:31 AM
While this was undertaken in USA hopefully this will cross the pond and get adopted in Europe as well. A standardised range for testosterone might tighten up diagnosis and treatment and put a stop to the spurious debate about whether a guy's testosterone is low enough to warrant attention or treatment.

http://www.endocrinologyadvisor.com/androgen-and-reproductive-disorders/testosterone-reference-ranges-established-for-men/article/633551/

For info in case not been seen in a wider context here.
JG

It's all in ng/dl units, I haven't the energy right now to do the conversion , but someone brighter than I will, I am sure, give it a stab sometime.
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: db570uk on April 05, 2017, 06:32:13 PM
March 2017 - Luton and Dunstable Hospital

Recent test ranges

Testosterone   (8.6 - 29.0 nmol/L)
LH                 (1.7 - 8.6 U/L)
FSH               (1.5 - 12.4 U/L)
SHBG             (15-55 nmol/L)
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: charlysays on April 06, 2017, 01:26:32 PM
No way!?

I was a raver and into Acid House too bruv! Used to go to Hacienda "Nude Nights", HelterSkelter, Fantasia, and went to my local raves at Shelley's and Entropy (Amnesia House) both in my town of Stoke on Trent.

Love listening to the Old Skool stuff still like Top Buzz, Daz Willet, Groove Rider, Krome and Time, Sasha, Man Paris and all them DJ's and MC's. Still do a bit of bedroom mixing these days too.

Seriously mate, they were the best years of my life bro.

Craig

Nice to see another raver about :)

Have a listen to FlexFM (can listen online or on 99.70 in greater London area) on a Sunday, 12-2pm... wicked early 90s oldschool show.
The Slammer- Krome & Time is a favourite of mine!
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: barkingmad on April 06, 2017, 01:51:55 PM
Perhaps not useful geographically but I've had my Testosterone level tested several times with Medichecks (they have used 2-3 different labs) - each time they have used the range: 7.6 - 31.4 nmol/L.

Various tests done via the NHS (Manchester) have used the range: 8.4 - 28.7 nmol/L.

You would like to think the NHS and labs would decide on a 'standard' range and ideally also take into account 'age'. A result of 9 nmol/L is technically in range and may not cause issues for some one aged 85 but is more likely to be an issue to someone aged 35.
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Olly13 on April 06, 2017, 02:06:20 PM
Perhaps not useful geographically but I've had my Testosterone level tested several times with Medichecks (they have used 2-3 different labs) - each time they have used the range: 7.6 - 31.4 nmol/L.

Various tests done via the NHS (Manchester) have used the range: 8.4 - 28.7 nmol/L.

You would like to think the NHS and labs would decide on a 'standard' range and ideally also take into account 'age'. A result of 9 nmol/L is technically in range and may not cause issues for some one aged 85 but is more likely to be an issue to someone aged 35.

And here lies the problem... 12nmol/L should really be the bottom of the range. It'll happen one day :)
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: barkingmad on April 06, 2017, 04:23:25 PM
Exactly. When my level was 9 they were not interested in looking at Testosterone as an issue as it was 'in range' (despite having fairly typical symptoms). Had to drop well below before it was taken more seriously - although now they are good about it.

I think a lot of it is many GPs are not that aware of male hormone issues - but setting the 'normal' range to a more realistic 12 would probably help - although (with my cynic hat on) would also increase demand on the NHS.

Current treatments are not perfect - but I'm convinced it's made a substantial improvement to my quality of life and I don't want to guess the number of men who would also benefit from treatment as assume it would be very significant!
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Olly13 on April 06, 2017, 05:58:07 PM
Exactly. When my level was 9 they were not interested in looking at Testosterone as an issue as it was 'in range' (despite having fairly typical symptoms). Had to drop well below before it was taken more seriously - although now they are good about it.

I think a lot of it is many GPs are not that aware of male hormone issues - but setting the 'normal' range to a more realistic 12 would probably help - although (with my cynic hat on) would also increase demand on the NHS.

Current treatments are not perfect - but I'm convinced it's made a substantial improvement to my quality of life and I don't want to guess the number of men who would also benefit from treatment as assume it would be very significant!

Your right there's probably a lot of guys out there who don't realise it's a thing, sadly, at least it's very slowly becoming more commonly known about.

I will say this about the ranges though, my levels were 9nmol/L too and my lab range was 11.7nmol/L and guess what? Still got told it was normal.. So half the battle is going to be getting Dr's to understand the issue at hand to be fair
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: barkingmad on April 06, 2017, 08:40:41 PM
Agree. Perhaps many doctors rely more on the ranges rather than the symptoms. I'm sure there are many people being treated with anti-depressants, ED, fat loss and other drugs when the actual cause of their issue(s) may actually be low Testosterone levels.
Title: Re: Reference Range Map
Post by: Olly13 on April 06, 2017, 09:58:42 PM
Agree. Perhaps many doctors rely more on the ranges rather than the symptoms. I'm sure there are many people being treated with anti-depressants, ED, fat loss and other drugs when the actual cause of their issue(s) may actually be low Testosterone levels.

Yup spent my teen years on and off antidepressants... I'm a classic theme really. Haha